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Talking Politics – Yahoo! News UK

 

By Liz Stephens

So taking maths at A level is on the increase? Brilliant, that’s just what the world needs – more bankers and economists. But you can bet most of them won’t be from the state sector. Despite today’s reported rise in the numbers of students taking maths, further maths and economics at A level, the underlying statistics show that ‘traditional’ subjects are still largely an independent school domain. Despite independent school pupils making up only 14.8 per cent of entries at A-level (private schools educate only 6.5 per cent of under 16’s), they made up over 30 per cent of those taking maths subjects.

Independent schools also saw a 2.1 per cent rise in grade A results this year. Dr Mike Cresswell, of the AQA exam board, admitted today: “Independent schools have been continuing to show a higher increase in results since 2002 when the new A-levels were brought in. If you took out that effect, you would get a lesser increase.” So why do the privately-schooled do so much better at A level?

It’s simplistic to argue that the trend towards maths is down to the credit crunch or the fact that the government is (allegedly) making 50,000 new university places available for maths and science subjects. These teenagers chose their courses well before either event. Statistically, many of them will go on to good universities and get good jobs – they knew what they were doing.

I still remember the first time I met an independent school pupil. It was at an A level conference in London when I was 16-years-old. As we entered the conference centre I saw them – they were like creatures from another planet, about a foot taller than us on average with clear skin and shiny hair. They probably ate couscous. They probably knew what couscous was. Above all though, they were supremely confident. They had been to conferences before and they knew what they were doing.

It’s not about the quality of the teaching – it’s the quality of the advice you receive.

Recent research by the Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) shows that students from state schools outperform at university those who went to independent schools and achieved the same A-level grades. However, a recent Sutton Trust review found that the least advantaged fifth of young people remain ten times less likely to attend an elite university than the most advantaged fifth. A lot of my peers didn’t go to a top university, they didn’t go to university at all. And if they did, they mostly chose more ‘vocational’ subjects because that’s what they were advised to do.

In the end, I was lucky enough to receive some good advice from a teacher. They told me that if I took more ‘traditional’ subjects I would have a better chance of going to a better university. I had some wonderful teachers at A level, some of whom even gave up spare time after school to coach me for my university interviews. You can’t buy that level of dedication – no matter how much you spend on school fees.

Why are we all bothering to comment on what is little more than a badly written blog by a woman with a chip on her shoulder?

Thought I’d put my tuppence worth in. I suppose there will always be the State v Private argument. But…
My daughter spent 4 years at our local State School where she was bullied constantly, and hated it. Despite that she did really well in her SG’s, although her confidence was destroyed. We also noticed that homework was non-existant, and (in reply to an earlier comment that said that Private schools “spoonfed” several teachers re-wrote pupils essays so they could regurgitate for exams.
We sent her private for the last two years of her education. Cost us an arm and a leg..we will be paying for the next 3 years, but her confidence is sky high. She was given so much homework, but as a result of the extra work, and I agree, the smaller classes, she got into University to study both Law and Accountancy. I wish we’d done it sooner. I have no regrets.

I am a governor of a state school and go on my knees thanking god that we can afford private school fees. The way state schools let kids – Britain’s future – down will give me apoplexy one day. I won’t go into the myriad ways the kids are let down, but it can be summed up in a phrase: LEFT WING @#$%TERY.
Readers of this blog who are parents of state school kids, can I give you some advice? Michael Gove, the next education minister? Whatever he proposes – support him. Support him to the hilt. Serious. Please listen to this. Ultimately what he is doing is trying to take on and undermine the strangehold lefties have over education in this country.
There is no mystery why private schools work and state schools don’t. It is discipline, EXPECTATIONS, thorough knowledge of the pupil (which does not happen in state schools), and consequences. Bullying in state schools is outrageous. It simply is not tolerated in private schools. Why? Because the adults are in charge, they pick it up quickly because they know all their pupils and consequences are swift. State schools are too large, discipline has been undermined by L W T, and the teachers are not firmly in charge – the bureaucrats are.
I hope you hear this – it’s your kids I care about. ANYTHING Gove does that proposes taking a school away from Local Education Authority control, that undermines the Teacher’s Unions, and gives authority back to the school, = support it.

In the same way that many people assume only the wealthy send their children to private schools, I think there is also a common assumption that everyone wants the best for their kids. This simply isn’t so. I know of more than one family who have opted to send their children to the local state primary simply because it happens to be on their route to work in the morning. Said school is in the middle of a “sink-estate” populated largely by drug users and the long term unemployed/unemployable. The fact that their children are now learning the feral traits of the local children (including how to address their mother as a f****** b******) doesn’t appear to bother then unduly; it is convenient and free. More important that they get to keep the full cream Sky package and maintain their 40-a-day habits. I have chosen to make sacrifices where luxuries are concerned so my son can benefit from a system which will teach him confidence, respect and empathy, hand in hand with a first class academic education. I attended one of the roughest Comprehensives in North London and have no wish to subject my son to a similarly appalling experience.

Bill Phipps has hit the nail on the head here. If we are going to be pedantic, Pearl Clarke, you do not use a comma before the word “and”.

When my son (now 13) was at state primary he cruised at the top of his year. In his final year there the best teacher he had had (brilliant) had his classroom contact hours cut 20% by some government initiative. My son once said to me that if he could make one rule at school it would be that no one was allowed to talk when the teacher was teaching.

I earn close to the average for my sector (IT). I now shop at Aldi and drive the cheapest car that I can find to keep him at independent school where he has to work to stay in the top 15%, the children are quiet in lessons and the top maths group in his year (8) were working on A* GCSE material. Are you saying that I should have spent the money on fast cars and fitted kitchens instead because independent education is somehow unfair and/or socially divisive??

The biggest problem with state education is the kicking away of the grammar school ladder by left wingers who climbed up it themselves. State education in this country will only be healed when the able and committed are helped to reach their potential. In the meantime I would advise anyone with an able child to remortgage their house, downsize the car, sell the TV, cancel their mobile contract and buy their jeans from Matalan if that is what it takes to send that child to an independent school.

And I hope that in his generation my son will help create jobs for those less fortunate than he.

There’s a complex mix of stuff to untangle in understanding this story. For a start, the independent and state sectors aren’t monolithic or exclusive. The independent sector covers places for an intellectual elite (think Winchester, StPaul’s, Wycombe Abbey), places for a social elite (Eton, Harrow, Stowe, etc)though with many extremely bright kids, and places that specialize in getting the best out of kids who can barely get the cap off a pen – but most are really just local grammar schools, where the state has pulled out of grammar school education. (And some of the best known, like Manchester Grammar, King Edward VI’s,z Edgbaston, King’s Chester, were free to anyone who could win a place until the Wilson government abolished the Direct Grant scheme in 1976). Some state schools are atrocious, but some are hot-shot places – the remaining grammar schools are excellent, and the country is dotted with high-flying sixth form colleges. Pupils move between the sectors – kids from independents choosing sixth-form colleges for greater informality and a wider choice of subjects, kids going from state schools to independents for the 6th form, kids going to private preps to help them get into state grammars… One of the best reasons for choosing independent if you can is that they’re not constricted by the national curriculum and the teachers don’t have to kow-tow to the latest dotty theories about teaching. The other great reason is the discipline and an atmosphere where academic achievement doesn’t get you isolated and bullied.

The Sutton Trust also has an odd idea about “elite universities”. They produce their statistics for this on the assumption that “elite” = Russell Group. But Durham, Exeter, Lancaster, StAndrew’s, SOAS, York and other top universities are in the 1994 Group of smaller research universities, so don’t figure in the Sutton Trust’s statistics, skewing them because many independents tend to focus on the big civic universities like Leeds, Manchester and Bristol – though, for example, the Complete University Guide/Independent newspaper league table places Lancaster 12th but Manchester 28th – which is more “elite”?

Oh – and as an admissions tutor in a high-ranked university, could I plead with state schools to make more efforts with their references on UCAS forms? The one’s from independent schools give me a rounded and realistic view of the applicant, while those from the vast majority of state schools just give me a run-down of predicted grades with standardized blurbs supposedly from class teachers (actually probably from a bank of ready made ones): “Jane’s maths tutor says she contributes well in class… and is a very good maths student. Predicted grade: D” Well, if you’re predicted a D in maths then you’re not a good maths student. I’ve even had detailed accounts at how good a student is at a subject they aren’t taking!

Finally, I don’t agree with n.okafor that private school achievers are “manufactured” – many are very good in the first place – after all, for the majority who do not come from “old money”, their parents have had to be bright to be successful enough to pay the fees and if a shape of nose, or skin or hair or eye colour is inheritable, why not intellectual potential? Equally, many state schools focus on coaching through exams, while the best independents focus on educating pupils – if you learn, say, maths or history really well for its own sake, then the exams will be easy.

Re: minerva_wm comments: ” Equally, many state schools focus on coaching through exams, while the best independents focus on educating pupils – if you learn, say, maths or history really well for its own sake, then the exams will be easy”.

I can’t agree more. It’s as I said above in my previous post with what my daughter told me about her old State School. Perhaps a bit off topic, my wife, who is “over 21″ resat her Higher English at a local College many years after her first presentation. She said the difference in teaching was immense, in that on the resit, she was taught how to pass the exam ie “spoonfed”, unlike at first presentation when all the information was given to you, and it was up to you how you used it. At the same time, my daughter overhead two of her former state school classmates discussing that they couldn’t believe how well they’d done in certain subjects. As she said, they did well because the teachers used to re-do their essays for them. I suppose the difference is these pupils may be found wanting at University since they may be unused to thinking for themselves. One other point that annoys me is some Universities using the “Pathways to the Professions”, where State School pupils can enter University with lower grades than private schools pupils would be required to have….to give the state pupils a chance. Like many posters here, my wife and I made many sacrifices to give our children this chance, in my son’s case who survived state school, but with the help of private tutors, and my daughter who has done really well at private school. Both at University, and both should do well.

I was educated in an independent school and have taught in both private and state schools. My parents were from working class, council estate backgrounds and wanted to invest in a broad education which provided me with a wealth of experiences that you just don’t get at state schools.
I question the assertion that class sizes are universally smaller at private schools. In my experience, they are roughly the same. I taught groups of 25+ in private school and have had smaller equivalent groups in the public sector.
Poor behaviour is a factor in state schools. While it will not directly be affecting A level classes, it will have contributed to those students’ progress in the foundation stages of their education. I have experienced parents who actively encourage their children to resist learning and tell them that school is not important. How are children supposed to achieve in these cir@#$%stances? Some children in state schools are poorly behaved and disruptive. In this case even the most dedicated of learners is being cheated of teaching time by the disaffected.
Parents of children at private schools are investing huge amounts of money in their children’s education and therefore obviously view it as a worthwhile and important thing. Consequently, these are values that they are instilling in their children. There are, of course, many similar parents who cannot afford school fees and whose children are state educated. While their children may view their education as valuable and while they may genuinely want to succeed, there is a culture in many state schools where achievement, hard work and manners are simply not ‘cool’. These children often face an uphill battle to achieve their success, fighting against other children for their right to learn. It is patently unfair that they should be denied the opportunities to learn because other children won’t let them.
It is largely for this reason that I continue to teach in what is classed as a ‘failing school’. Not because I can’t get a job in a ‘better’ school, but because I believe in the right of every child to access a good education. In a way, with a supportive background and the facilities available to them, children in private schools need good teachers less than children from less privileged cir@#$%stances.
I am proud to be a teacher. I am supremely grateful to my parents for the huge sacrifices they made to give me these chances. I hope that I can use their gift to create opportunities for the children I teach.

doneast1 has a legitimate concern about letting pupils in with worse grades from state schools, and I entirely understand his/her point. I’m unaware of that happening at my university – I certainly don’t do this – but I do let some applicants in with lower grades who have poor backgrounds and have completed a month-long summer school at the university, taught by colleagues of mine, and who have proven that they are in fact much better (when out of a bad home/school environment) than their A-level grades would suggest. The problem with saying that it’s unfair to make such allowances is that this implies that the point of independent school is to “buy your way in” to a better university. We’re looking for proven ability and the likelihood of success at university – there are *some* state school pupils who can fairly demonstrate this even though they have lower grades. If a child suffers disrupted classes at school, an anti-academic atmosphere, a crowded home with nowhere to do homework in peace, perhaps having to look after younger siblings, maybe with parents who don’t understand the desire to go to university (or would rather see the dole cheque coming in), then surely it is fair to cut those kids a bit of slack rather than punishing them further for the sins or deficiencies or poverty of their parents? When you pay school fees (and I think parents should choose independent whenever they can – unless they’ve got a really good state school nearby) you should think of yourself as paying for a really good *education*: better learning, a wide range of extra-curricular activities, a more rounded experience. It ought not to be seen as paying for your child to get better results and a better university place.

Going slightly off-topic myself, but bearing in mind what a number of posters have said: spoonfeeding, essay rewriting by teachers (and essay writing by parents – or even their underlings at work!) are worrying to universities. We’re seeing a lot of stuff in the media and hearing it at open days, about contact time, teaching and so on. The idea of university is that you go to a place with a community of scholars who pursue advanced scholarship and research in their fields, where you can have access to (not constant handholding from) real experts in the field, where there will be terrific library resources and equipment and so on, to learn a subject for yourself. University teaching is meant to be about providing a structure, giving guidance and inspiration and an opportunity for the student to check how well s/he is actually learning what they’ve set out to learn. The whole ethos is different, and meant to be different from school – where the pupil goes not so much to learn as to be taught and private study is there to supplement and reinforce the teaching. University is supposed to be the other way round. Because schools are focussing ever more on coaching for easy exam results, education as therapy, teaching as spoonfeeding, and on education as a package, these attitudes are being carried by students and their parents into the higher education environment, where it just doesn’t belong. This is one of the most worrying trends currently. Are our schools creating a generation of students incapable of moving on to independent study at university? This is not a problem of either the state or the independent sector: it’s evident in both. The best of both types of school are the ones who do most to move their pupils towards greater independence in learning, so that university does not come as such a shock.

The way education is perceived by pupils is totally different between state and independent schools. In state schools those who want to achieve a good education are looked down on and ridiculed by those in school, its not looked on as cool. It’s the other way around in an independent schools to be an achiever you are seen as cool. It’s the not the case of independent pupils being more confident they are literally taught to look down on people not educated like themselves.

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